I was on a flight back to New York the other day, and something really odd happened when we landed: the passengers burst into applause. I’ve only ever seen that happen after a flight with really bad turbulence or a big delay. But this was a totally boring flight that took off and landed on time with no drama whatsoever. So why the clapping?

Well, you know why: there have been a lot of plane crashes, or near crashes lately — and it’s all against the backdrop of the Trump administration and Elon Musk firing Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) employees and talking about upgrading everything with Starlink, or whatever they’re posting about on social media today.

Just this week, news reports have detailed exactly how Musk has wedged his way into the agency to force SpaceX into the conversation — including a move to take over an existing Verizon contract and even threatening FAA employees with termination if they don’t get fully onboard.

So the reason it feels less safe to fly — the reason people are clapping when the plane lands — isn’t just the tragic accidents. It’s that the system we took for granted to keep us safe and solve problems when they occur is being destabilized right in front of our eyes, and actually improving that system takes more than posts and bravado or conflicts of interest so intense it causes a constitutional crisis. It’s actually a complicated dance of people, technology, and policy — you know, Decoder stuff.

So today I’m talking to Andy Hawkins, The Verge’s transportation editor, about what’s going on in the skies. He just edited a big piece for us by writer Darryl Campbell that helps put a lot of what’s happening in air travel right now into perspective. There’s some very reassuring data about how safe it is to actually fly, but there are also some big questions about what we need to do next to regain our confidence in air travel.

He and I talked about how safe it really is to fly right now — extremely safe — and how the current air traffic systems might change for the better and the worse. And, of course, we talked about Musk.

If you’d like to read more on what we talked about in this episode, check out the links below: