We knew at some point Tim Cook would step down from his position as Apple’s CEO. Over the last year, it has become increasingly obvious that John Ternus was his likely successor. The news this week was still a surprise, though — and this year’s succession could lead to some important changes at the most influential company in tech.

On this episode of The Vergecast, David and Nilay are joined by Daring Fireball’s John Gruber to talk about their reactions to the news, the (mostly) smooth transition Apple seems to have pulled off, and what we should really make of Tim Cook’s legacy as a product person. Really, the question is: Do we blame Cook for the Touch Bar, or do we blame him for not trying hard enough to make the Touch Bar great?

After that, David and Nilay check in on Microsoft’s ongoing gaming ambitions. The company is back in on the Xbox brand, it appears, and is making big promises about making it easy for gamers to play anything, anywhere. That won’t be easy, though — and Microsoft’s going to need some legal help to pull it off.

If you want to know more about everything we discuss in this episode, here are some links to get you started: